THE VEPR FORUM

Atterete Dominatum
It is currently Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:41 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Slug Accuracy
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:21 pm
Posts: 31
For anyone running a red dot on the factory dust cover rail, how much POI change have you experienced by opening the cover and closing it again? I zeroed mine at 50 yards with my Vortex Razor red dot with Fiocci low recoil slugs a few weeks ago and had a major shift in POI today (maybe 6 inches left and 8 or so inches high) with the same slugs. Everything I’ve read says that may cause a slight shift but nothing that drastic. My cover is fairly tight in comparison to what I’ve seen on others’ in videos. I did also add a GK03++ brake since then but no other changes. I have a 3gun match before I’ll get a chance to check zero again and I’m not overly confident. Any experiences would be helpful (I’m not touching anything between now and then). Any experience is appreciated.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Slug Accuracy
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:13 am
Posts: 1762
Location: Great State of Pennsylvania
I thinks your optics or the optics mount may be the problem.

_________________
Guns are worthless if you can't feed them....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Slug Accuracy
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:10 am
Posts: 33
I had no zero shift with slugs over the 3 months i had a dot on the dust cover, and i must have opened that cover 50 times while refining my trigger and playing with the bho. Ymmv.

Any add ons at the muzzle end can be quite likely to give you a poi shift (brake/chokes)

Ive gone back to how a shotgun should be used, my eyes are the sights... I just couldnt get my brain around the way the dot pulled my eye into it, causing me to stop the gun on target and.... aim! Slow as shit when youre on the clock!

Irons are zeroed for slugs now so no poi shift and shooting slugs is the only time my eyes come back to the gun looking for an aiming reference. The old adage "point a shotgun, aim a rifle" rings true here imho. My guns for gaming too.

Aaaand im rambling and off topic.


Last edited by czechmate on Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:10 am, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Slug Accuracy
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:56 pm
Posts: 1016
While I myself have never run a dust cover mounted optic, I have heard several competitors say throughout the years that simply opening and closing the dust cover can cause a significant POI shift....

....Which is why I have never run a dust cover mounted optic.

Also, what FPS are those fiocchi's? I know they make some really really soft ones, which tend to have a trajectory like a rainbow. I would recommend something with a little more energy, like federal 1 oz 1300 or better yet 1400 fps. A flatter slug trajectory will benefit you at varying distances and will likely line up better with your bird shot pattern up close. The very low recoil ones also tend to work great until you are on the clock at a match. That's just my experience. Take it or leave it.

You have some options... I've always been the biggest fan of a scout mount on these.

By far the best is a Dissident Arms Ultra Low Sight Rail(Ding!)

http://dissidentarms.com/index.php/prod ... ight-rail/

We mill out the factory sight base to accept a 1913 picatinny rail which is fuse welded into place by a master structural welder. Its the lowest bore axis you can get in a scout mount, and of course the most solid. If you really want to leave nothing to chance, then its the way to go.

The money you spend on It you will make back quickly by avoiding wasted trips to the range and associated fees, ruined matches from zero shifts, wasted ammo from re-zeroing slugs, blah de blah blah blah why do I talk.

There are other options too. You will find them in my old YouTube vids.

In the short term, If I were you, I would do nothing. Maybe buy a $25 Bushnell boresighter with 12gauge adapter and re-establish a rough zero at 15 yards in your back yard, and then don't open the dust cover before the match.

Better still, wait till the next match. Give yourself time to get your gear squared away. Take that time and money you would have spent going to the match to....blah blah blah blah blah blah.

The end.

:)

-V

_________________
PLEASE EMAIL Vadim@DissidentArms.com

WWW.4RANGE.COM Use code "V4V5" FOR 5% OFF

"Harness the power of your Inner Russian"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Slug Accuracy
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:10 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:56 pm
Posts: 1016
Also adding a muzzle brake could also significantly alter the POI due to redirection of gasses as well as changes to the velocity of the blah blah blah blah blah blah blaaaaaaaaaaaah blah blah....


:)

-V

_________________
PLEASE EMAIL Vadim@DissidentArms.com

WWW.4RANGE.COM Use code "V4V5" FOR 5% OFF

"Harness the power of your Inner Russian"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Slug Accuracy
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:02 pm
Posts: 113
Location: http://www.youtube.com/user/cpu68
hey bro, i have had zero accuracy change (i zeroed my v-12 when i had all accessories installed). i have 2 different optics mounted on my vepr-12's the el-cheapo trs-25, and a primary arms md-ads red dot on the other, i zeroed my v-12's using wolf rifled slugs and have open/closed the dust cover at least 10x since i installed the optic, and i have no change in poi. you should never zero optics until you have all of your muzzle brake, chokes, barrel attachments installed, if you take a shot and zero with muzzle brake off, then you take a second shot with muzzle brake on, more than likely you will see some kind of change in accuracy because of the muzzle brake/choke. anything that is attached to the barrel will alter accuracy.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Slug Accuracy
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:21 pm
Posts: 31
VforVandetta wrote:
While I myself have never run a dust cover mounted optic, I have heard several competitors say throughout the years that simply opening and closing the dust cover can cause a significant POI shift....

....Which is why I have never run a dust cover mounted optic.

Also, what FPS are those fiocchi's? I know they make some really really soft ones, which tend to have a trajectory like a rainbow. I would recommend something with a little more energy, like federal 1 oz 1300 or better yet 1400 fps. A flatter slug trajectory will benefit you at varying distances and will likely line up better with your bird shot pattern up close. The very low recoil ones also tend to work great until you are on the clock at a match. That's just my experience. Take it or leave it.

You have some options... I've always been the biggest fan of a scout mount on these.

By far the best is a Dissident Arms Ultra Low Sight Rail(Ding!)

http://dissidentarms.com/index.php/prod ... ight-rail/

We mill out the factory sight base to accept a 1913 picatinny rail which is fuse welded into place by a master structural welder. Its the lowest bore axis you can get in a scout mount, and of course the most solid. If you really want to leave nothing to chance, then its the way to go.

The money you spend on It you will make back quickly by avoiding wasted trips to the range and associated fees, ruined matches from zero shifts, wasted ammo from re-zeroing slugs, blah de blah blah blah why do I talk.

There are other options too. You will find them in my old YouTube vids.

In the short term, If I were you, I would do nothing. Maybe buy a $25 Bushnell boresighter with 12gauge adapter and re-establish a rough zero at 15 yards in your back yard, and then don't open the dust cover before the match.

Better still, wait till the next match. Give yourself time to get your gear squared away. Take that time and money you would have spent going to the match to....blah blah blah blah blah blah.

The end.

:)

-V


They are the 3 gun slugs, 7/8 oz @ 1300 fps, they should be good, it is possible that this barrel doesn't like them, but the gun is, if anything, overgassed and is pretty punishing to shoot the heavier loads (the brake should help). I do plan to send the whole thing off to Dissident in the off season to have them recoat it, add the sight base rail and probably the left side charging handle and internal chokes. For this year though, I'll have to make due, the AlfaArms rail I tried was too big, (that was the subject of a previous thread), and although he got more in that were shorter in OAL, I didn't take him up on it, so I'm stuck with the dust cover for the remainder of the year.

I thought the brake may have had some effect but it was such a large shift, it seemed like too much, I was hoping to take it off and on during a match since it adds weight and length and isn't necessary for the birdshot loads, but that might not be an option, apparently. I did not see barrel harmonics being as big a deal in a smooth bore, but I guess it's possible that the extra weight and change to gass pressure did make a change, I'll do some testing on that in the future.

I did just get the Dissident MLOK rail which I have to install AFTER the next match and I should be set for this year. Any idea if I can leave the upper hand guard collars on the gas tube or will they definitely interfere with the install?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Slug Accuracy
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:32 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:56 pm
Posts: 1016
T-Bone wrote:
VforVandetta wrote:
While I myself have never run a dust cover mounted optic, I have heard several competitors say throughout the years that simply opening and closing the dust cover can cause a significant POI shift....

....Which is why I have never run a dust cover mounted optic.

Also, what FPS are those fiocchi's? I know they make some really really soft ones, which tend to have a trajectory like a rainbow. I would recommend something with a little more energy, like federal 1 oz 1300 or better yet 1400 fps. A flatter slug trajectory will benefit you at varying distances and will likely line up better with your bird shot pattern up close. The very low recoil ones also tend to work great until you are on the clock at a match. That's just my experience. Take it or leave it.

You have some options... I've always been the biggest fan of a scout mount on these.

By far the best is a Dissident Arms Ultra Low Sight Rail(Ding!)

http://dissidentarms.com/index.php/prod ... ight-rail/

We mill out the factory sight base to accept a 1913 picatinny rail which is fuse welded into place by a master structural welder. Its the lowest bore axis you can get in a scout mount, and of course the most solid. If you really want to leave nothing to chance, then its the way to go.

The money you spend on It you will make back quickly by avoiding wasted trips to the range and associated fees, ruined matches from zero shifts, wasted ammo from re-zeroing slugs, blah de blah blah blah why do I talk.

There are other options too. You will find them in my old YouTube vids.

In the short term, If I were you, I would do nothing. Maybe buy a $25 Bushnell boresighter with 12gauge adapter and re-establish a rough zero at 15 yards in your back yard, and then don't open the dust cover before the match.

Better still, wait till the next match. Give yourself time to get your gear squared away. Take that time and money you would have spent going to the match to....blah blah blah blah blah blah.

The end.

:)

-V


They are the 3 gun slugs, 7/8 oz @ 1300 fps, they should be good, it is possible that this barrel doesn't like them, but the gun is, if anything, overgassed and is pretty punishing to shoot the heavier loads (the brake should help).

Most matches go pretty light on slugs my man. Maybe 5 total, which includes enough for misses! Try the Federal tru ball 1 oz 1300 fps or 1400fps. I think you will like them. They shoot real nice. And yes the brake helps a lot. The hotter the load, the more it helps, as seen in my muzzle brake shoot around video with 3" turkey loads. They rocked my world with a bare muzzle, but when I put on the GK-02 I had at the time, I was shocked at how effective it was.

I do plan to send the whole thing off to Dissident in the off season to have them recoat it, add the sight base rail and probably the left side charging handle and internal chokes. For this year though, I'll have to make due, the AlfaArms rail I tried was too big, (that was the subject of a previous thread), and although he got more in that were shorter in OAL, I didn't take him up on it, so I'm stuck with the dust cover for the remainder of the year.

We'll be waitin for ya. When its time, hit me up for a discount code.I wouldn't sweat it too much. Like I said, you might be on the hook for 2 or 3 actual slug hits during a match. Hopefully at big targets. So practice when you can, check your zero, check your optic and mount, and have a good time. If you miss you miss. Move on quickly and focus on the other 97% of the match.

I thought the brake may have had some effect but it was such a large shift, it seemed like too much, I was hoping to take it off and on during a match since it adds weight and length and isn't necessary for the birdshot loads, but that might not be an option, apparently. I did not see barrel harmonics being as big a deal in a smooth bore, but I guess it's possible that the extra weight and change to gass pressure did make a change, I'll do some testing on that in the future.

I would encourage you to not take your brake off/on at a match. If you want a guaranteed way to add stress to your day and take your mind off the shooting, then by all means. You'll be on the hook for re-timing it correctly every time which might throw your POI all over the place if you don't. YES the brake will reduce your muzzle energy by as much as 80-100 fps, which will change the trajectory, and YES a brake will throw the windage off as well because it compensates for the inherent one sided recoil of the AK system. These are real, documented things. Get that brake on there, time it perfectly straight, and rezero. Practice, clean, and recheck your zero. Repeat. Be happy. Shoot fast and ride the wild boar into the sunset.

I did just get the Dissident MLOK rail which I have to install AFTER the next match and I should be set for this year. Any idea if I can leave the upper hand guard collars on the gas tube or will they definitely interfere with the install?

Yes, them flanges need to come off. You can send us just the gas tube and we'll do it for $25 and make it real pretty.

http://dissidentarms.com/index.php/prod ... tallation/

With Sweet Russian Love,

-V

_________________
PLEASE EMAIL Vadim@DissidentArms.com

WWW.4RANGE.COM Use code "V4V5" FOR 5% OFF

"Harness the power of your Inner Russian"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Slug Accuracy
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:52 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:21 pm
Posts: 31
What’s the turnaround on the gas tube? There are two matches a week apart with the last being April 29, then a gap until June 9. Is that gap big enough? If it’s even going to be close, I’ll wait or cut them off myself and send it in for touch up later.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Slug Accuracy
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:56 pm
Posts: 1016
T-Bone wrote:
What’s the turnaround on the gas tube? There are two matches a week apart with the last being April 29, then a gap until June 9. Is that gap big enough? If it’s even going to be close, I’ll wait or cut them off myself and send it in for touch up later.


Single service is 2-4 weeks. Much closer to 2 for something that simple.

-V

_________________
PLEASE EMAIL Vadim@DissidentArms.com

WWW.4RANGE.COM Use code "V4V5" FOR 5% OFF

"Harness the power of your Inner Russian"


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group