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 Post subject: Re: NFA Trusts
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:42 pm 
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evlblkwpnz wrote:
The ATF does not care if you do a Quicken revocable living trust or pay a lawyer to do it. They are looking for wording that is required to make it a valid trust in your state, a grantor, a beneficiary, an executor/trustee, some form of property in the Schedule of Assets ($1 satisfies this), and a notary stamp (certified true copy), nothing more. Lawyers have done a great job of making people think they need to overpay to meet this criteria. It is pure fear mongering. My Quicken trust has been vetted 9 times.


This is true, that the ATF will approve a generic Trust, but it's not wise to have one that is not firearm specific in terms of handling NFA items. I have seen the Gun Trust firm that advertises in JAX and they are way over the top with pricing. You can find proper Trusts for way less that are proper for handling NFA items.


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 Post subject: Re: NFA Trusts
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:51 pm 
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evlblkwpnz wrote:
The ATF does not care if you do a Quicken revocable living trust or pay a lawyer to do it. They are looking for wording that is required to make it a valid trust in your state, a grantor, a beneficiary, an executor/trustee, some form of property in the Schedule of Assets ($1 satisfies this), and a notary stamp (certified true copy), nothing more. Lawyers have done a great job of making people think they need to overpay to meet this criteria. It is pure fear mongering. My Quicken trust has been vetted 9 times.

I don't recall what program my SOT used to have all the Trusts he does made with but it wasn't done by a "Specialist NFA Lawyer", and just for shits and giggles I had a Lawyer friend of the family look over it some time ago and they gave their "stamp of approval" and said it was Legal, legit and good to go. I've used it several times over and never had a hang up or a denial. :)

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 Post subject: Re: NFA Trusts
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:45 pm 
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I have yet to see anyone other than a lawyer, people who don't even have an NFA trust, or people who have paid a lawyer to create one talking about problems with this. I have a meeting with the ATF next week and will see what the thoughts are from someone who actually works for the bureau.

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 Post subject: Re: NFA Trusts
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:51 pm 
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evlblkwpnz wrote:
I have yet to see anyone other than a lawyer, people who don't even have an NFA trust, or people who have paid a lawyer to create one talking about problems with this. I have a meeting with the ATF next week and will see what the thoughts are from someone who actually works for the bureau.

Same here, I even had an "NFA Lawyer" say that he's seen several cases where people got charged with felonies and had their NFA items confiscated by the ATF for using Quicken, Cosmo, etc. programs to have NFA Trusts written up but when I asked for links to documentation to these court cases or any info on them he could not provide anything.

Let us know how your meeting goes. :)

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 Post subject: Re: NFA Trusts
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:31 am 
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I will definitely chime back in with what is said about it.

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 Post subject: Re: NFA Trusts
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:13 am 
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Chino wrote:
evlblkwpnz wrote:
I have yet to see anyone other than a lawyer, people who don't even have an NFA trust, or people who have paid a lawyer to create one talking about problems with this. I have a meeting with the ATF next week and will see what the thoughts are from someone who actually works for the bureau.

Same here, I even had an "NFA Lawyer" say that he's seen several cases where people got charged with felonies and had their NFA items confiscated by the ATF for using Quicken, Cosmo, etc. programs to have NFA Trusts written up but when I asked for links to documentation to these court cases or any info on them he could not provide anything.

Let us know how your meeting goes. :)



A gun store in Wenatchee got busted for that last year or the year before. They lost their FFL. Search for that and you should find an article. At least one owner surrendered his stuff in a sort of plea deal to avoid being prosecuted. I expect we'll see some gun store owner get done for 'unauthorized practice of law' sooner or later too. A lot of them are doing that by handing out forms and telling people how to do them and giving opinions about the legal effect or what choices to maek.

Keep in mind the ATF is only concerned about covering their butts, not yours. They only look far enough to see if the right 'slots' are filled to be legally valid. Moreover, some of them would like things to suck for you. 'Legally valid' does not necessarily mean that it does a good job of fulfilling your wishes. If you don't make your trust say what should happen in various circumstances, there is a pretty good chance something will happen that you would rather not. This should be quite obvious. Quicken trusts, and the like are structured to transfer property such as cash, stocks, land, cars, etc. They don't take any consideration for holding stuff for the next eligible transferree. They don't tell the trustee what to do. So the trustee will be stuck either selling the stuff and passing the cash on to the beneficiary, forfeiting it, or hiring a lawyer to tell him what to do and billing that to your heirs. The trustee will do this stuff, to avoid getting sued. Or the trustee will be a family member or friend who just guesses and hopes he hasn't broken any rules. That's an awesome plan! Yay. Let's make our plans on the assumption that everything will go right.

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 Post subject: Re: NFA Trusts
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:47 pm 
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Executor selection is the most important element to it, IMO. It needs to be either someone who knows what needs to be done or someone who will put forth the effort to research it and do whatever needs to be done in accordance with applicable laws. I agree, it is a sticky situation all the way around, regardless of who or what created the trust. Lawyers make mistakes too. A lawyer loses in every case where there is legal representation on both sides ;)

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 Post subject: Re: NFA Trusts
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:14 pm 
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Not necessarily in contract negotiation.

Yes lawyers make mistakes. But unless you have a lot of expertise in the subject matter, they are going to think of questions to ask and answer that just wouldn't occur to you.

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P.M. me if you want help:
modify or fix your gun

shotguns, some gunsmithing, reloading, fabrication, knife making, etc.

I'm a firearms/NFA attorney in Wa. Let's combine business, pleasure, and stamps.

http://www.youtube.com/user/armaggedonite


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 Post subject: Re: NFA Trusts
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:29 pm 
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GunFun wrote:
A gun store in Wenatchee got busted for that last year or the year before. They lost their FFL. Search for that and you should find an article. At least one owner surrendered his stuff in a sort of plea deal to avoid being prosecuted. I expect we'll see some gun store owner get done for 'unauthorized practice of law' sooner or later too. A lot of them are doing that by handing out forms and telling people how to do them and giving opinions about the legal effect or what choices to maek.

Keep in mind the ATF is only concerned about covering their butts, not yours. They only look far enough to see if the right 'slots' are filled to be legally valid. Moreover, some of them would like things to suck for you. 'Legally valid' does not necessarily mean that it does a good job of fulfilling your wishes. If you don't make your trust say what should happen in various circumstances, there is a pretty good chance something will happen that you would rather not. This should be quite obvious. Quicken trusts, and the like are structured to transfer property such as cash, stocks, land, cars, etc. They don't take any consideration for holding stuff for the next eligible transferree. They don't tell the trustee what to do. So the trustee will be stuck either selling the stuff and passing the cash on to the beneficiary, forfeiting it, or hiring a lawyer to tell him what to do and billing that to your heirs. The trustee will do this stuff, to avoid getting sued. Or the trustee will be a family member or friend who just guesses and hopes he hasn't broken any rules. That's an awesome plan! Yay. Let's make our plans on the assumption that everything will go right.
Which gun store was it? There isn't a whole ton of gun stores up in Wenatchee, WA and I could not find any article in my searches, I even asked my brother who lives up in WA about any gun stores he may have heard about getting raided, losing their license, etc. and he had no clue.

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 Post subject: Re: NFA Trusts
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:39 am 
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I tried to find the news stories again and couldn't. They were there a few months back as I read them with interest. I wish I had saved them.

IIRC at least 3 individuals had to forfeit toys, one of which was threatened with charges later dropped, the shop lost it's FFL and also had to forfeit a few things. I don't think anyone ended up with criminal convictions.

_________________
P.M. me if you want help:
modify or fix your gun

shotguns, some gunsmithing, reloading, fabrication, knife making, etc.

I'm a firearms/NFA attorney in Wa. Let's combine business, pleasure, and stamps.

http://www.youtube.com/user/armaggedonite


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