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 Post subject: NFA Trusts
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:56 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:31 am
Posts: 284
Location: Minnesota
I don't know if I will go down the SBR route or not, but admittedly, it is tempting (it doesn't help that I recently picked up a Zastava PAP M92PV pistol). I happen to live in a city where the CLEO is anti-gun (he supports the Brady Campaign), so I wouldn't bother wasting my time trying to get his approval regarding something of this nature. I certainly don't feel like moving (I will simply renew my lease again, as I don't plan on going anywhere until I finish college), so the only legal route open to me would be that of the NFA trust. Does anyone have any experience with such trusts? How complicated is the process of establishing one? How long does it take? Are there any particular protocols pertaining to a short barreled rifle after it is approved by the BATFE?

I reiterate that I haven't made a definite decision as of yet, but it would be helpful to have some information to arrive at a decision. Furthermore, would an SBR be subject to 922(r) regulations?


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 Post subject: Re: NFA Trusts
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:31 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:27 am
Posts: 176
Location: Montana
I can't help with the trust questions. My CLEOs have always been supportive of signing anything put in front of them.

On the particularities of the NFA item after approval, there are a few. Mainly, if/when you sell it will be expensive. There will be two transfer taxes to pay. It is up to you and the buyer to figure out who pays what. On an expensive gun this cost is acceptable. But, $400 in fees to transfer out a $500 suppressor, not so much.

He only other PITA I've come across is taking the items out of state. You must first write the ATF for approval. The good thing is the form is valid for one year.

Finally, timelines. The AFT is sooo backed up right now. Expect 12-15 months before anything is approved. Double that if you have more than one transfer involved with the item.

All that said, DO IT! I don't regret any of mine.


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 Post subject: Re: NFA Trusts
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:06 pm
Posts: 1822
Location: Washington
Get a trust done by someone who specializes.

There are a lot of advangages:

here are a handfull

No CLEO garbage
comparative privacy (registered property of the "NoneOfYourBusiness Trust")
Ability to designate multiple beneficiaries (should your wife get in trouble for using it without you around? What if you want to lend it to your buddy...)
Avoidance of a possible "insta-felon"vs disclaimer of ownership situation.
Instructions and guidance for your heirs, or someone who can look out for things for them. (Maybe your son isn't a gun guy- is he going to know NFA rules, or know which to keep forever and which are OK to sell?)

Think about a few situations with individual ownership. What if you die suddenly or get convicted of some kind of stupid felony, or have some kind of unexpected mental problem that could disqualify you from owning. There is an instant transfer. Now who does it go to? Is there something to guide that person about what they need to do? What if that person is ineligible. What if you want to keep it in the family but your son is ineligible. (you might be able to make a trust that would hold it for your grand daughter until she is elligible)

There's lots of things a custom trust can do. A quicken trust won't deal with any of those problems. You want a real lawyer, who has some specifici NFA knowledge to do it. It will cost you a few hundred dollars one time. It's worth it.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, but I hope to some day be one and offer this service. So I can't and won't give legal advice, and I do have some incentive to recommend the services of my future profession. I helped an attorney draw one up for himself and compared a lot of common form trusts and a couple off of the NFA forums, etc. Also another attorney freind's trust. I was shocked at how many people were using forms that didn't protect themselves from the obvious situations, not even the obscure.

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P.M. me if you want help:
modify or fix your gun

shotguns, some gunsmithing, reloading, fabrication, knife making, etc.

I'm a firearms/NFA attorney in Wa. Let's combine business, pleasure, and stamps.

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 Post subject: Re: NFA Trusts
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:37 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:14 pm
Posts: 263
I hope you are aware of the executive order, now in the review process, that will do away with the most advances of a trust. Many people, me included, have been submitting forms like mad. The changes were ,"requested", by a NFA group. You might want to do a search. Right now it is taking a year to do a form four. They, according to ATF's web site, are 70,000 behind.


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 Post subject: Re: NFA Trusts
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:50 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:06 pm
Posts: 1822
Location: Washington
I am aware. I am interested to see how that plays out. Yet another reason to get one in soon to give yourself more control, and more flexibility.

_________________
P.M. me if you want help:
modify or fix your gun

shotguns, some gunsmithing, reloading, fabrication, knife making, etc.

I'm a firearms/NFA attorney in Wa. Let's combine business, pleasure, and stamps.

http://www.youtube.com/user/armaggedonite


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 Post subject: Re: NFA Trusts
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:23 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:31 am
Posts: 284
Location: Minnesota
GunFun wrote:
Get a trust done by someone who specializes.

There are a lot of advangages:

here are a handfull

No CLEO garbage
comparative privacy (registered property of the "NoneOfYourBusiness Trust")
Ability to designate multiple beneficiaries (should your wife get in trouble for using it without you around? What if you want to lend it to your buddy...)
Avoidance of a possible "insta-felon"vs disclaimer of ownership situation.
Instructions and guidance for your heirs, or someone who can look out for things for them. (Maybe your son isn't a gun guy- is he going to know NFA rules, or know which to keep forever and which are OK to sell?)

Think about a few situations with individual ownership. What if you die suddenly or get convicted of some kind of stupid felony, or have some kind of unexpected mental problem that could disqualify you from owning. There is an instant transfer. Now who does it go to? Is there something to guide that person about what they need to do? What if that person is ineligible. What if you want to keep it in the family but your son is ineligible. (you might be able to make a trust that would hold it for your grand daughter until she is elligible)

There's lots of things a custom trust can do. A quicken trust won't deal with any of those problems. You want a real lawyer, who has some specifici NFA knowledge to do it. It will cost you a few hundred dollars one time. It's worth it.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, but I hope to some day be one and offer this service. So I can't and won't give legal advice, and I do have some incentive to recommend the services of my future profession. I helped an attorney draw one up for himself and compared a lot of common form trusts and a couple off of the NFA forums, etc. Also another attorney freind's trust. I was shocked at how many people were using forms that didn't protect themselves from the obvious situations, not even the obscure.


I wasn't aware that these advantages existed. Such things do make a trust sound more appealing. Granted, I have also heard about that executive order being reviewed. It is unfortunate that I am still trying to make up my mind under such pressure.


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 Post subject: Re: NFA Trusts
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:43 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:06 pm
Posts: 1822
Location: Washington
If your trust is talking about real estate, that's a pretty good sign it wasn't designed to handle transfers of firearms.

A legally valid trust is not necessarily a well structured trust for accomplishing your goals. It just blows me away how many people are willing to risk felonies / losing all their stuff to save $2-800. "Well my gun shop handed me a form and the ATF took it, so good enough for me..." That's the equivalent of " the mine hasn't collapsed yet, so I guess this rotten timber is strong enough."

Another thing you could ask your lawyer about is making either part of that trust or another trust to handle your non title II firearms. i.e. what if the guns you own now become restricted transfer items later? I think it would be nice to have them owned by an imortal entity that might not have to transfer them for a long time.

Again- I am not an attorney, so this is only a suggestion to ask one about the above ideas.

_________________
P.M. me if you want help:
modify or fix your gun

shotguns, some gunsmithing, reloading, fabrication, knife making, etc.

I'm a firearms/NFA attorney in Wa. Let's combine business, pleasure, and stamps.

http://www.youtube.com/user/armaggedonite


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 Post subject: Re: NFA Trusts
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:03 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:12 am
Posts: 128
If you're looking into a Gun/NFA Trust, do it now. It must be written though with Federal, State and local firearms code/law wording for it to be a legitimate NFA/Gun Trust. You will avoid CLEO sign-off and also be able to submit Form 1s electronically in the ATF's E-File system with a Trust. Also, if you purchase an existing NFA/Title II item, make sure you choose a SOT/Class 3 FFL who also uses E-File. Try to avoid the paper forms mailed in. Those are taking longer to get approved. My current Trust contains Title I firearms now, some which we be Title II/NFA items soon. I have an assignment sheet that I use to transfer non-NFA items into the Trust, something which any attorney who does Trusts can give you when you have one made.


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 Post subject: Re: NFA Trusts
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:27 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:43 pm
Posts: 3035
Location: Yulee, Florida
The ATF does not care if you do a Quicken revocable living trust or pay a lawyer to do it. They are looking for wording that is required to make it a valid trust in your state, a grantor, a beneficiary, an executor/trustee, some form of property in the Schedule of Assets ($1 satisfies this), and a notary stamp (certified true copy), nothing more. Lawyers have done a great job of making people think they need to overpay to meet this criteria. It is pure fear mongering. My Quicken trust has been vetted 9 times.

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 Post subject: Re: NFA Trusts
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:14 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:06 pm
Posts: 1822
Location: Washington
Not fear mongering, observation of genuine risks.

Just because a trust meets the minimum legal standards does not mean that it has the ability to protect you or allow your heirs ability to control a situation.

You can believe what you want, but this is pretty obvious if you examine a well constructed trust or think through the consequences of a generic trust. Quite simply, this is a very foolish way to attempt to save money.

_________________
P.M. me if you want help:
modify or fix your gun

shotguns, some gunsmithing, reloading, fabrication, knife making, etc.

I'm a firearms/NFA attorney in Wa. Let's combine business, pleasure, and stamps.

http://www.youtube.com/user/armaggedonite


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