ALG AKT and polishing VEPR 12 internals
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Author:  Doxs_Roxs [ Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  ALG AKT and polishing VEPR 12 internals


I am currently trying to get my VEPR 12 to work reliably with 28 gram loads, but I have some issues.

The following has been done to the gun:
    Cleared fouled gas ports and increased them to 2.2 millimeters
    Replaced gas block, removed a lot of material to expose the gas ports and make it fit (my gas ports are off center as well...)
    Installed an ALG EMR V1 tube, cut out done for the gas system and it is fit to the barrel via a custom aluminium bushing that is press fit around the barrel
    Internals polished a bit here and there, hopefully in mostly the right places
    Large aluminium flared magwell installed
    Extended mag release
    ALG AKT (the old original one)
    LAC enhanced bolt hold open
    GK01 russian compensator (GK03 on the way)
    I got about 5 different gas pucks
    I got numerous springs I have tried
    New grip and probably a few other things I forgot about

As you can see, I put waaay to much work and energy into this gun, more then it deserves.

I am currently trying to get it to reliably reload 28 gram slug and buckshot loads, I hope to reach 24 gram loads as well one day, but it seems to be a far way off with this rifle.

Currently I cannot get it to reload with the original springs, lightening the front spring enables reload but will occationally cause failures to feed the new cartridge from the magazine.
On top of this I recently installed an old ALG AKT trigger, the first one released. This increased the drag in the system making it even more unreliable.

I have polished and removed a lot of material from it, but it is very time consuming since disassembly takes a fair bit of time I thought Id make a post here to make sure I am focusing on the right thing.

Question, can I remove more material from the top of the trigger hook holding the hammer or does it need to be depressed by the bolt carrier when cycling the action.
It only contacts the carrier when the trigger is not depressed and in doing so seem to lift the disconnector. But I assume that should never happen?

Second question, can I remove more material from the bottom of the bolt carrier or should I refrain from that? This would make it easier to reduce friction since its easier to remove and work on. Its also rather thick.
Here is the bottom of my bolt carrier:

Im also worried about lightening the hammer too much giving me a future problem with light strikes on primers.

Ill try and get some pictures up so you can see better what I mean.
Please let me know if I missed something, but this is getting rediculous, each and every part I buy for it requires fitting...
I seriously spent 20 hours on it this week and it is starting to get on my nerves.

Author:  Doxs_Roxs [ Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ALG AKT and polishing VEPR 12 internals

Ok, Im a bit surprised so many read my post and I got no replies.

Anyway, put about 2-3 hours into the action today and did the following:

Smoothed out the action around the area where it closes and opens the bolt.
Took some material off the trigger components to reduce drag.

I have been adviced not to touch the mating surfaces where the bolt closes and figured its probably a good idea to be careful in that area.
My solution was to cycle the gun manually. I really have no idea about the number of times, I just put some earphones on and cycled it for about 1 hour while watching youtube.
Definetly more then one per second, had to work hard in the beginning and I can really tell a difference now.
Before I could barely move it with my hand in certain spots, basically if I did not move it fast it would get stuck enough for the spring not to be able to push it into its locked position.
Now I can tilt the rifle about 45 degrees towards the floor and let the carrier go with no spring and it will lock up just from gravity. (not a new gun, just always had huge issues with it)

As for the ALG AKT trigger, I removed some material from the top of the sear hook so that it no longer interferes with the bolt carrier. This reduced drag by a good amount. This is away from the sear surface, never touched those.
I also took some more off the hammer profile where it interfaces with the bolt carrier. I ensured the profile is still square where it is striking the striker.
I was also careful to ensure the hammer is depressed about 1 mm past the disconnector hook when cycling the action.
Both these things really reduced drag by a huge amount.

The trigger work has not been that bad to do, I knew its not meant for this gun when I started.
What has really ticked me off is the fact that each and every upgrade to the gun has required filing, fitting or just plain modifying things.
The magwell and mag release with the hidden spring and pushing a pin through 6 holes and said spring each time I had to tear things apart was a proper pain and just about the most annoying thing I have ever done on any of my guns.

Anyway, rant done. Ill write an update as soon as I have tested the gun.
The next step is to ensure the trigger works as intended with live ammo, install yet another gas puck and start experimenting with spring strength if needed to ensure it reloads properly.
If I can get the energy for it Ill post some pictures as well. Might help if someone else has similar issues or wild ideas to fit the same trigger.

Author:  Doxs_Roxs [ Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ALG AKT and polishing VEPR 12 internals

Ok, have not had the time to test it at the range since I had to much fun with one of my other rifles this weekend.

I did notice a few areas that might need improving:

The spring guiderod has an incredible amount of slop in it and the picture above does not do it justice.
I can probably move the thing up towards 7-8mm (~1/4") by just pushing/pulling on it.
Some people believe this can cause some unnecessary drag when cycling the gun. After playing with it I think I agree.

New after market spring guide with delrin bushing ordered. I already have a new gas puck and a high power hammer spring on the way.

Hopefully this will be the last parts I need to make this thing work the way I want it.

Author:  Doxs_Roxs [ Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ALG AKT and polishing VEPR 12 internals

New day, new surprises!

On the right hand side, my original MOLOT 8 round magazine bought in 2014.
On the left hand side, 2 MOLOT 10 round magazines I bought yesterday.

My carefully adjusted magazine latch (as per instructions it was adjusted in length) that work with my old magazines will not hold the new magazines securely.
They can move around and from testing at home I will most likely have to buy a new magazine latch, adjust it to fit the new magazines and then modify the old magazines to make them fit as well.

In my experience any movement in the magazines will drop it each time you pull the trigger.
This has already happened to me once, a club member filmed it and made a meme of me dropping mags earlier this summer, I dont want to become another meme :lol:

Unfortunately magazine latch adjustment is just about as painful of an operation as I can imagine on this gun due to the hidden spring and pin that holds it all together through maglatch, magwell and receiver. :cry:
I will try this setup on the range, but I dont have high hopes. Will be very glad if it works though.

Author:  evlblkwpnz [ Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ALG AKT and polishing VEPR 12 internals

Experiment with the hammer profile, not the bolt carrier. The FCG is much cheaper to buy and easier to find if you go too far and need to start over. The aftermarket guide rod is not necessary and in some cases can work against reliability. If you were watching my videos while cycling the action by hand ;) you saw guns that have factory springs and factory guide rods. Maybe 2 of them do not have totally factory recoil assemblies and I was not thrilled about it when I was working on them because everything I do to these guns in regards to action work and gas work is based on using factory recoil assemblies.

What country are you in? The mention of loads by gram makes me think you are somewhere other than the USA.

Author:  Doxs_Roxs [ Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ALG AKT and polishing VEPR 12 internals

Thanks for the tips. I am actually not sure if I watched your videos or not, what is the link to your channel?
Im from Sweden, so yes, not in the US :)

I have tested the gun since the post above and the magazines work with my old magwell, even if the mag latch engages the new magazines a bit to much after firing.
Ill probably get a new latch and adjust it and the old magazines to make it all work a bit smoother. Dont want to have issues with reloading.

The trigger pull is fantastic and I am happy with the profile I have on the hammer now.
It is depressed just past the disconnector and I have eliminated just about all the unnecessary movement and friction.
Ill see if I can get a good picture of it in its current state.

My only remaining problem is getting this gun to reload with 28 and possibly 24 gram loads.

I have now tried with original springs and a lightened front spring as well as a bunch of different gas pucks.
Still cannot make the 27-28 gram loads cycle. Not even close with original springs and almost makes it with the lightened spring.
I have even lighter springs that I can make fit and that will reload the gun, but they are so light I will instead have failures to feed from a fully loaded magazine.

Im starting to suspect the issue is a combination of the current gas block and the modifications I had to do to it to make it fit.
One of the issues with this gun is that the gas ports are offset a little bit from center, probably to much vodka that morning on the production line. :lol:

This caused most of them to be partially blocked by the original gas block.
So after removing it a few years a ago I increased the size of them from just under 2 mm diameter to 2.2 mm each just to be sure I could get this thing to run. (I have 5 ports)

However, I opted to install a gas block produced by LAC (Leykom Armory Customs in Russia) to remove the front sight post and enable me to change gas pucks and clean the gas system from the front.
The block is produced for the VEPR 12, however, as I found out, measurements are a bit off. After pressing it onto the gun I realize both pin holes do not line up with the cut outs in my barrel.
The instructions from LAC says to just drill new holes. Im not willing to do that, so I fit it as best as I could with the first pin that actually lined up pretty well.
I had to remove about 1 mm of material to fit the gas tube, but apart from that it was mostly in place. Thats when I realized the cut out in the gas block for the gas ports was not even close.
It was about 1 cm off and completely covered all gas ports. And no, the block is not on backwards, its impossible to mount in the wrong direction due to gas tube lenght and the fact that the threaded plug goes forward :lol:

Thus I had to remove a lot of metal from the inside of the already larger block to uncover the gas ports. The original block has a very small internal volume, this block is bored straight through and even with the threaded plug in place it has a substantially larger volume.
I suspect that this volume is large enough to reduce the force of the gas impulse.
Alternatively this setup has reduced gas puck travel, but if that is the case I think it is very minor since I measured it and it seemed to be similar to the original gas block.

My current thoughts are to either construct my own gas block or to just brute force my way through this and increase the port size even further.
I have not decided what path to take yet, but increasing port size is probably way cheaper and easier, with the possible downside of going to far.

Author:  Doxs_Roxs [ Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ALG AKT and polishing VEPR 12 internals

I just did some testing with the new magazines before I order yet another magazine latch.
Unfortunately they sit to low to properly engage the bolt hold open, so I will definetly have to get another and modify my old magazines to ensure they all fit exactly the same way.

Author:  evlblkwpnz [ Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ALG AKT and polishing VEPR 12 internals

Evlutionz channel

8" Saiga-12 100 round dump with 3 dram

7" Vepr-12

Did the LAC gas block just have dimples to drill new holes or was it drilled all of the way through? It makes much more sense to just provide dimples rather than holes all of the way through when something is being installed on a weapon that may not have perfectly matching pin grooves. Dimples allow one to use a drill bit for a DIY type install and holes all of the way through go much easier with an end mill, which most DIY guys will not have or will not have a machine that will run a low enough RPM to use them effectively on hardened materials like a barrel. If I ever offer a gas block it will just have dimples. The easier it is to install a product the more likely people will buy it and install it themselves.

1oz or 28g loads are quite light, but if they are at 1235 fps they are the dram equivalent of 1-1/8oz 1200 fps loads. How does it run with 32g loads? I test most guns out with 32g (1-1/8oz 1200 fps, 3 dram) loads if the right services are selected and factory recoil assembly is used. Some will test out with 2.75 dram loads and factory springs, but most only do that with a Salvo 12 silencer attached.

Never give up. It is just metal and plastic ;)

I have always wondered how the process of buying a firearm works in Sweden. Can you give a brief explanation of that?

Author:  Doxs_Roxs [ Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: ALG AKT and polishing VEPR 12 internals

Thanks, really cool videos :D

The LAC gas block had fully drilled holes. The first hole almost lined up with the pin groove in the barrel and I could make it fit but I had to shorten the face of the gas block a bit to fit the gas tube. (about 1mm)
The second pin hole did not line up so I just left it open instead of drilling out the barrel. I guess I could have milled a new and matching hole in the gas block but press fit and single pin seem good enough for me while testing.

Im not sure how 32g loads work, I have only tested a few loads lately. The one I used to test with the current springs was Sellier & Bellot 32g (1 1/8 oz) 3mm (US 5).
Im not sure the dram equivalent but I assume its pretty low since they feel soft when shooting.
I can get all these loads to reload with even lighter springs, but then I have the issue of feeding problems instead so my current plan is still to improve gas pressure/flow.

Buying a firearm in Sweden is pretty straight forward. Join a gun club, be active, dont have a criminal record etc. How long it takes and how hard it is depends mostly on what sport you choose and how fast you learn. If you for example want to go the IPSC route it takes at least 2 years. Others sports like national precision for pistol will allow you to shoot a .22 lr pistol after 6 months provided you can shoot good enough. (there are a number of tests that must be completed)
Handgun licenses have to be renewed every 5 years.

The law is pretty clear, unfortunately the "legal" part of the police that actually handle the permits is full of police activists that see it as their calling in life to reduce legal gun ownership since they have a theory that this would reduce the insane amount of gang related shootings that have hit the country the last couple of years.
This is despite the fact that there is very clear statistical evidence that the almost 2 million legal guns and gun parts registered in the country are not used by criminals. (we also have requirements for storage in gun safes etc.)
Its widely known that most weapons used by criminals are smuggled in from south east Europe, primarily ex Jugoslavia.

Based on this its something of a lottery if your license request is approved or not. Even if approved it can take beween 1-12 months depending where you live.
Even official statistics state that the manpower and estimated time to handle a license request mean there should be waiting times measured in a few days at most.
Its obvious they are dilberately spending most of their time obstructing and trying to reduce legal gun ownership by making it as hard as possible for people.
The arguments brought forward as the reason for declining a license by the police are generally lacking in technical knowledge with wild allegations that have no basis in reality.
I have personal examples with 15 written pages as a reason for declining a rifle that is clearly allowed by law, it was equally clear the person writing it had no technical knowledge.

There is case after case where the police decline licenses based on things that are clearly allowed and if appealed correctly they lose in court.
Unfortunately this is a cost for the private person while they seem to have unlimited funds... (one famous case last year was appeled and won in the highest instance. He paid over $50 000 to win)
Any win in a lower instance is referenced by the police as a precedent, usually these are caused by people appealing without a lawyer.
Even if there is a similar case where the private person won in a higher instance, they will argue that they are not valid and not applicable, forcing you to go to court.
There are cases where people have had to appeal two times in a row since the police refused to follow the court decision.

One such case involves a sport shooter with several swedish championship medals being denied a gun license since they did not think his activity was high enough. (he was VERY active in the sport)

Some of the latest cases involve normal repeater rifles like the Ruger RPR and similar rifles that "look to mean" and are declined for hunting purposes even though they are clearly allowed by the current law and NaturvÄrdsverket who is resposible for what weapons are allowed for hunting.
Things like folding stocks and pistol grips are extra dangerous since they allegedly enable weapons to be fired from the hip etc. etc.

Author:  evlblkwpnz [ Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ALG AKT and polishing VEPR 12 internals

Wow. That's a convoluted process. It is the same here that the actions of a few deprive the rest of their liberties. We still have enough guns around that it is difficult for those who would seek to deprive us of them to push too hard. They still try, but even they know there is a fine line that would be unwise to cross boldly.

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