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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:49 pm 
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Saw a Utube review that the Fostech Origin 12 was the fastest shotgun out there. Guy must not have shot a Vepr 12. BTW, the price on the Fostech was @$2600 and up, they want $525 for the 30 round mag that is coming but not yet available.

No thanks, sticking with the Vepr 12.

https://fostechoutdoors.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=10#


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:57 pm 
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I thought about sending that guy the EVL video, but I'm sure he'd poo poo it, since it's modded and not stock.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:55 am 
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bob in st. louis wrote:
I thought about sending that guy the EVL video, but I'm sure he'd poo poo it, since it's modded and not stock.



Nope. It's stock. It is a hokey bit of oem original kludgery, and internet hype. Few things get that much undeserved hype outside of kickstarter. We have at least 4 prior threads on it.

GunFun wrote:
I wrote a very detailed thing on that in another forum. i'll paste it here.I'll add that the video is about 2 years old, and the gun is closer to 7 at this point with only two made it seems. This is beyond dead. There are probably only a handful of magazines too.

I want someone in America to make a ground up mag fed shotgun. This manages to consider everything you could want off of a checklist and gets most of them wrong, but a few of the less important factors ok. The barrel is a good thing- if someone was making them.

Paste:

Looks like a complicated bunch of machining.It also looks huge and heavy. When I wish an american company would make a mag fed semi auto shotgun, I dream of a more streamlined design that is lighter and has less needless bulk than current imports like S12 and Adkal. Something with simple mechanics that can be made to work well consistently and be produced for a reasonable price.

That guy doing the review is the same channel as the guy who drills gas ports straight and advises half the internet to do the same. (a guarantee that you are filling your gas block with crud.) Here he blames an S12's short stroke gas system for unreliability! The whole point of a short stroke gas system is to isolate the crud from the rest of the gun and reduce the tolerance requirements for the whole gun. (a tight fit is only needed in the gas block, not a good seal for most of the gas tube) If his shotguns get crud in the gas block and plug up, it ain't the gun's fault. I don't think the S12 is perfect, but this guy listed one of the primary design strengths as a weakness. That's just wrong.

I don't have an opinion of fostech, but anyone who has done any reading would have good reason to doubt any liability claims from AA (Alliance Armament). Those guys are just straight up dishonest. They are infamous for bad business: missed deadlines, false claims of capabilities, mangling guns, and smearing competitors, laughably rigged videos showing advantages over competitor products...

To me ignoring who did this, I see a bunch of good ideas that are not quite done right: (trying to be as close to objective as I can about this. A few of the following points are to be read as a hypothetical conversation.)
Modularity: bulk of a very large quad without a lot of rails in the right places (& it's a shotgun you don't need many if any)= negative points
Modularity: Interchangeable barrels = they did fine here.
Modularity: Takes standard AK grips = they did fine here.

Manual of arms: LRBHO = dang well better have one
Manual of arms: Ambi Safety = ditto
Manual of arms: Mag release = Dang well better have one- But why make it just out of reach!? a slight nubbin would have made it so that it could be reached without breaking firing grip
Manual of arms: Left side charging handle: 1) good idea 2) why not ambi? 3) why a sharp looking reciprocating one!? slight improvement where huge improvement would not have been much harder in a ground up design.
Manual of arms: Magwell. ok here, but there were a ton of existing choices for mag that they could have used (030/Vepr comes to mind) Since this looks to be a fancy low production item, there will never be enough magazines. 8 rounds is a lame max. No extra credit for AA drum option.
Manual of arms/ ergo: (que imaginary conversation) AA: A folder is always good let's use an Ace hinge type system it's proven and it works. GF, good idea, modular, proven and simple. AA: Not so fast. We are going to align the hinge way low then build up high so that using other stocks on ACE pattern wouldn't be right. Also we are going to put a spur on there so that it can stab you when it is folded. We don't like the force to be in a straight line down the hinge either. It should be lopsided. GF: Bwah!??? I mean, how did you even... nevermind.

Reliability: Open long stroke gas system -Nope, one big step backward.
Reliability: fragile looking carrier fortunately with approximately 600 mill cuts to reproduce when it breaks.
Reliability: Fiddly looking ejection port cover just looks like a source of problems - I could be wrong. not any worse than the goofy kludge on the S12 (shutter )though.
Reliability: General good thinking with a head scratcher on execution... AA: Keep AK loose internal tolerances, but seal all the holes on the outside like an AR so that crud doesn't get in there. --GF: OK good thinking so far. Show me what you got- AA: Now let's make it a third bigger than it needs to be with each part requiring precision machining and have it designed by someone from Nerf! --GF: Sigh. Good effort, you get a blue "participant" ribbon. You spent how long on this and didn't notice what it looks like?
Reliability: Legendary Mythological AA service and Support.

So they might say, "this isn't a honda accord for every man, it's a ferrari! You can't expect it to be cheap!" My response is that I would not expect ferrari to put out a car at full price and leave the design to Tonka, and the manufacture to Yugo. I'd rather put my ferrari money into a proven build with lots of support or even a new one done by someone like JTE, R&R, Firebird, or tromix.... It would cost a lot but you would get something flawless. I'd rather have an ugly century made clone of an S12 over this.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:01 am 
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I'd also list needlessly proprietary low production mags.

Fostech is probably better at manufacture and support than AA was before fostech bought them out, but with current events, I think fostech might be a short lived company too.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:25 pm 
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GunFun wrote:
bob in st. louis wrote:
I thought about sending that guy the EVL video, but I'm sure he'd poo poo it, since it's modded and not stock.



Nope. It's stock. It is a hokey bit of oem original kludgery, and internet hype. Few things get that much undeserved hype outside of kickstarter. We have at least 4 prior threads on it.

Sorry, I meant the V12 and Saigas on EVLs videos were modded, therefore he'd poo poo those as being faster than the Fostec.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:41 am 
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"Fastest shotgun" is pretty broad. Maybe it should be titled "fastest shotgun that no one except a 07FFL/02SOT can possess". I'm not even sure it really owns that title either. I watched that a while back and the word "clickbait" came to mind. It was. I have smoked his rate of full auto fire with my finger over and over on video, with my customers' guns and personally owned guns. Guns normal folks can actually own ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:53 am 
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bob in st. louis wrote:
GunFun wrote:
bob in st. louis wrote:
I thought about sending that guy the EVL video, but I'm sure he'd poo poo it, since it's modded and not stock.



Nope. It's stock. It is a hokey bit of oem original kludgery, and internet hype. Few things get that much undeserved hype outside of kickstarter. We have at least 4 prior threads on it.

Sorry, I meant the V12 and Saigas on EVLs videos were modded, therefore he'd poo poo those as being faster than the Fostec.


I suspect a siaga or vepr with any roughly inline stock and a comp can be run as fast or faster than the fostec without other mods. There are plenty of tube fed semis out there that cycle way faster than a person can hold them on target and pull the trigger.

"Fastest" is also a trickier word than you might think. Winchester claims it because their bolt cycle time is less than others. IIRC Benelli claims it on the basis of comparing their split times to other tube guns... Another company could find their layout is quicker in certain transitions between targets, and any mag fed gun wins on any string of fire which requires a reload.

I think "fastest as an aggregate of reloads, split times, and transitions in a configuration that is affordable, available and reliable with a broad range of ammo" is a claim that origin would not hold even if it were affordable and available. It isn't set up to handle a variety of ammo. It's mags are kinda fat, which makes holding them consistently and even finding a way to carry them tricky. All that stuff slows you down. The winchester autoloader is probably faster on raw cyclic rate, if that is the metric they are claiming to be fastest in.

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shotguns, some gunsmithing, reloading, fabrication, knife making, etc.

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http://www.youtube.com/user/armaggedonite


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:28 am 
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I have ran Saigas and Veprs with no comp or inline stock faster than that rig. Trigger time is all I can attribute it to.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:54 am 
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EVL, post the IZ 433 vid. You aren't getting any faster than that. Thanks again.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:13 am 
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This is pretty quick, but I have done faster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyxJPIwlxw0

It's raining hulls, hallelujah it raining hulls...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A_OhUUwjS4

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